Notpron Forums

Please read all before replying, thank you.

I just want to mention some discours rules, because I feel sorry for some people when I see them "discuss"

The start of a discussion is not like "ok, lets discuss"...you just slip into it, and you will know when this is.

At first you have to enter a discussion with an opinion, but not with a diamond-solid opinion.
Every member of the discussion must be treated the with the same respect. Every point that is being raised needs to be seriously considered (even when you hate the opposing person).
And then you must be able to change your opinion based on the new points.
If you do not like a point, back it up with proper reasons.

The main problem here is pride!
Just people THINK they appear weak when they admit they are wrong or so.
Just what it's really like is that admiting a weakness is an indicator of personal, mental strength and requires a lot of respect.

I don't get deeper into it, that would be too much.
But stuff like "you utter retard", "grow up", "get a life", "go get sex" is nothing but stupid. I don't explain why, you know that yourself.
And when someone raises a point and you call it "pathetic" is not valid either. Back it up....but generally, these words all shouldn't be used.
Constant "lol" ":D" or whatever at the "opposing" person isn't suitable either. It's done to show something like "look, I can still laugh, because I feel so superior to you", pretty childish reflexes. And don't laugh at other people's arguments. If you do, it means you are not interested in the truth finding process.

By the way, once one person starts with swear words "you fucking idiot"... nobody of both parties will be able to admit faults or that the other one said something smart. Keep the language clean. Once the language quality is low, the whole discussion is nothing but a pointless argument.
Or would you agree with someone who calls you an idiot? No...
Same for provocation, it's not a good thing usually (depends...really) and results in the rest of the discussion to be a mess.

And yes, I am doing lots of it wrong here and there... clear thing. But I am aware of it and I'm trying
Temper is just a bad thing that nobody can subpress, isn't it?

A lot of people also shout around bad things to make others look bad. I'm sure you did that already. But please ask yourself in every case why you are doing it. What would the next step be? How does it appear from the other person's view?
(If I tell someone "you are a fucking idiot", he will not think "yes, you are right", neither will he feel bad!!)
That should have most people being quiet, because they realise that their intentions are totally pointless and awkward.

And the most important of all: There is no winner in a discussion. When you try to win it, you have lost it already, because you are not able to discuss.
It is about an objective search for the truth or a consent.

Read all? No? Then do so or get lost

PS: this one isn't directed at any person, and no personal issues are to be held in here! I'll delete all this if it comes up...

Totally agreed... quite sad to see people just insulting each other every day instead of playing and having fun together /o\

good one

i totally agree to these rules!

yes this is good, but [removed because it's off topic]

For a good example of how to properly discuss head over to http://forum.somethingawful.com and click on "Debate and Discussion". You have to pay 10$ to be able to post there, but you can watch for free.

moo
sure, 10$ make sure no jerks get through, but that can't be it. let's better help troubled people

The thing that's so funny about 'proper discussion' is that people too often try to put up rules for them.

Very good post by DavidM, but the atmosphere we're creating here is one that might end up in people creating a sort of etiquette by which to 'discuss' (or rather; to talk about with regard to opposing views ;p).
It happens all too often that people will just go for the argumentum ad hominem and write off opinions because they are against what they had decided a priori to be wrong by default.
Believe it or not, if a party in the discussion wants to be racistic or nazistic (with regard to Jelly's post, merely as a an example) imo he can be. It's a valid opinion, because all of the mare. It's just one not supported or tolerated by a lot of philosophy's that *in my opinion* make more sense; however, if anyone can ever convince me of a view held to be racistic by most people: there's no reason I shouldn't change my opinion according to that.

I've never heard a plausible argument for racism 'an sich' though
(However, when people integrate in another culture, it is only logical that they can't fully take part in society on 'higher' levels because they are simply 'behind' on a lot of stuff, namely proper education, understanding of language and of context with regards to culture etc.) (<-- just to show an example of how racism can sometimes be legit).

Anyway, this thread is nice and all but I think this is a process people will all need to go through individually: there is no other way.
Needless to say, a lot of people will never go through it at all!

There is not always one truth (like when it's about taste), but the racist guy doesn't need to convince you. Rasism is wrong, let's just be ignorant and state this to be true. It's up to you to convince him...just the fact that he is a racist means he's too stupid to accept that.
(They know that it's crap anyway....just wouldn't admit it publically etc, innit?)

And I removed all the not related junk from this thread, to improve the atmosphere

DavidM wrote: There is not always one truth (like when it's about taste), but the racist guy doesn't need to convince you. Rasism is wrong, let's just be ignorant and state this to be true. It's up to you to convince him...just the fact that he is a racist means he's too stupid to accept that.
(They know that it's crap anyway....just wouldn't admit it publically etc, innit?)

And I removed all the not related junk from this thread, to improve the atmosphere

Can there be a discussion with only one side?

Hey, if the racist can change my opinion...
just I can't imagine anyone bringing up good points for this

DavidM wrote: Hey, if the racist can change my opinion...
just I can't imagine anyone bringing up good points for this

Well, maybe not on that specific argument anyway

What I said...be open minded and consider every point thats being brought up....

Ironically, I had skipped the posts myself because I assumed most of them I wouldn't have to read (had to rush my point in in a quick post before I was off to dinner ;p). I thought I'd get back to it /o\

Ignorant me /o\ now I missed the chance to read them

DavidM wrote: Hey, if the racist can change my opinion...
just I can't imagine anyone bringing up good points for this

Yeah that's what I said

It's funny how a lot of fascists and racists that actually 'have' been in power (like Mussolini or Hitler) have used arguments that were valid in totally wrong contexts to use for things that made no sense.
The thing is, of course Hitler couldn't just present bullshit and made people believe it. It sounded right, but a lot of things were wrong to start with (a priori) like assuming there are multiple 'races' inside humanity.

It's funny how Nietzsche even warned for people not to 'punish' or condemn the jews [like hitler did], even though he often used them as a 'symbol' (as a more aggressive way of talking about semitic culture as a whole, usually aiming at jewish tradition and, more specifically, religion - including christianity as a product of it)
Nietzsche's theories of the übermensch combined with his opinion on the jewish 'heritage' as the root of western decadency were later used by Hitler to order a genocide on the jews.

I think I've never heard a valid argument for racism or fascism all that's said is 'they steal our jobs' and 'they ruin are beautiful country'.

imo if they steal jobs they're obviously better at them or they wouldn't be hired. Which is pretty good of them because with all the problems people have with integrating, adopting a new language and a new culture; it's pretty hard to do that.
The best man obviously gets the job, right?

As for them saying that people born in other countries or with different skin-colours shouldn't walk around in a country, is the same as stating that people should always stay in the country they were born in, and people shouldn't migrate. There's absolutely no practically or logically justifiable reason to say this though.


Anyway, ot: Discussions I think people too often see as a contest; to put out the best arguments is something that's not meant to 'beat' the other, but to optimally represent your opinion (so as to reach a concensus with the other parties).
Often trying to beat someone else will just end up in less quality if arguments, and more slagging off at eachother

Messy wrote:
imo if they steal jobs they're obviously better at them or they wouldn't be hired. ...
The best man obviously gets the job, right?

The cheapest man gets the job. Wait til you are out in the 'real world' and have to deal with outsourced workers; they arent better as a unit, solely cheaper.

Im not doubting there are some good people, better or more efficient than workers in the host country,unfortunately they are the exception rather than the rule.

When these rules are broken, you either never seem to read it or just let it go.. whts the point enforceing them if you do such thing.