OMFG how stupid are you????
Just cos we are against VO games doesn't mean we are against volleys!!!!!
Have you ever seen a VO game where 1 team is using the wall all the time, and the other is playing LMB charged passes into the box?...
...last time I did, it was about 24 - 6 in favour of the passing team.
LMB Pass -> Volley -> Goal (usually)
Wall-pass -> Goalie catches/you get killed/you get boosted away/you get your team-mates frustrated.
I don't want to play soccer...
Moderators: Jay2k1, DavidM, The_One
Statement - self volleys are lame and should be discourage because this is a team game.
Reworded but, the same statement - individual shots are lame and should be discouaraged because this is a team game.
Reworded again but, still the same. powered shots and pass shots are lame and should be discouarged because this is a team game.
So many people have tunnel vision and don't understand what they are saying because they don't see the whole picture.
See bad player not using teamwork. See bad player not using teamwork by using self volley. Make post - getting rid of self volley is good.
They:
Don't understand that "not using teamwork" is the problem.
Don't understand that powered shots and pass shots are exactly the same as self volleys in the fact that they are also individual shots.
Don't understand that all individual shot are exactly the same in terms of "no teamwork", "egoing", "lame", ect.. They are all avenues for a poor player to abuse.
I didn't post any opinions in this thread. I pointed out flaws in other people's posts. I pointed out that, so far, no person has made a successful, logical, argument, that shows the benifits of this rule.
Reworded but, the same statement - individual shots are lame and should be discouaraged because this is a team game.
Reworded again but, still the same. powered shots and pass shots are lame and should be discouarged because this is a team game.
So many people have tunnel vision and don't understand what they are saying because they don't see the whole picture.
See bad player not using teamwork. See bad player not using teamwork by using self volley. Make post - getting rid of self volley is good.
They:
Don't understand that "not using teamwork" is the problem.
Don't understand that powered shots and pass shots are exactly the same as self volleys in the fact that they are also individual shots.
Don't understand that all individual shot are exactly the same in terms of "no teamwork", "egoing", "lame", ect.. They are all avenues for a poor player to abuse.
I didn't post any opinions in this thread. I pointed out flaws in other people's posts. I pointed out that, so far, no person has made a successful, logical, argument, that shows the benifits of this rule.
worst part in all this is.. people will start ignoring twig and he will think he made valid points. 
the way u jump from one statement to the other is flawed.
Granny smith is a sour apple it causes me heartburn.
therefore, all apples are sour and cuase heartburn.
therefore, macintosh will cause heartburn. don't eat it.
logic 101 states u cant generalize from specific statements.
"self volleys are lame" to "individual shots are lame" is a specific to general move. flawed logic.
and nowhere has it been said individual shots need to be discouraged. (thats something u posted and started using it as truth).
what was said was SPECIFICALLY self volley shots should be discouraged, because THEY are lame... and also, as a side effect, they discourage teamplay.
just doing what ur doing.. picking up other ppl's posts and showing that even if they sound intelligent.. doesnt mean they're right...
simply attacking ur logic.. not making a statement on the game..Statement - self volleys are lame and should be discourage because this is a team game.
Reworded but, the same statement - individual shots are lame and should be discouaraged because this is a team game.
Reworded again but, still the same. powered shots and pass shots are lame and should be discouarged because this is a team game.
the way u jump from one statement to the other is flawed.
Granny smith is a sour apple it causes me heartburn.
therefore, all apples are sour and cuase heartburn.
therefore, macintosh will cause heartburn. don't eat it.
logic 101 states u cant generalize from specific statements.
"self volleys are lame" to "individual shots are lame" is a specific to general move. flawed logic.
and nowhere has it been said individual shots need to be discouraged. (thats something u posted and started using it as truth).
what was said was SPECIFICALLY self volley shots should be discouraged, because THEY are lame... and also, as a side effect, they discourage teamplay.
just doing what ur doing.. picking up other ppl's posts and showing that even if they sound intelligent.. doesnt mean they're right...
Priior you're comparing apples and oranges... what was the whole purpose of this brilliant code change? To prevent "egoing" correct and promote teamwork right?
What Twigster is subtly asking, if you kept an open mind and you actually read the statements, is how is an egotistical use of a powered up shot any different from the egotistical use of a self-volleyed shot? It's not! It's ego all the same. What about a 1 man breakaway, just the offenseman and the keep. Would self-volleying be egoing even though the closest offenseman is on the defensive side of the field? NO!!! The offenseman's three options WERE, powered up shot, lure the keep and pass shot, or self-volley shot (used to force the keep to dash out)... wihtout a self-volleyed shot, the keep doesn't have to worry about an intentional miss to set up a volley. YOUR logic is what's flawed, not Twigster's... somebody please look at the whole picture.
P.S. - Priior's a defenseman, no wonder he's bitching about it.
What Twigster is subtly asking, if you kept an open mind and you actually read the statements, is how is an egotistical use of a powered up shot any different from the egotistical use of a self-volleyed shot? It's not! It's ego all the same. What about a 1 man breakaway, just the offenseman and the keep. Would self-volleying be egoing even though the closest offenseman is on the defensive side of the field? NO!!! The offenseman's three options WERE, powered up shot, lure the keep and pass shot, or self-volley shot (used to force the keep to dash out)... wihtout a self-volleyed shot, the keep doesn't have to worry about an intentional miss to set up a volley. YOUR logic is what's flawed, not Twigster's... somebody please look at the whole picture.
P.S. - Priior's a defenseman, no wonder he's bitching about it.
Last edited by Esorcismo on 25-08-2004 18:42, edited 1 time in total.
esor, as i stated in my post.. i am merely doing what twig admitted is doing.. pointing out the flaws in other ppls' posts.
bad logic masquarading as good argument ticks me off
and to ansewer your question.. no.. it's not the same. a self wall volley is a "technique" for scoring (if you start telling me ppl self volley all the time to pass.. i will call you nuts and end it there). it uses a charge shot to start, then bounces the ball off a wall.. then hit towards the goal at a very fast speed. this is a technique.
a pass or a charged shot is not a technique. theyre the tools of the game. you can use them to pass, to shoot, to reset the game, etc.. saying that if selfwall volley is removed, then both the pass shot and the charge shot should be removed as well.. is flawed logic.
(notice the lack of personal attacks in my posts.. like.. "if you kept an open mind" or "actually read the statements"...or.. implying other ppl dont look at the big picture..)
if still not convinced, then answer me this: if you were attacking with ur teammates.. and had the possibility to self wall volley or pass and let the other person score.. both sure scores... which option would you take? if you answer it honestly enough, you should understand the difference.
top reply to ur edit:
im not bitching about it.. again, im just pointing out flawed logic passing as so called "smart argument". there's nothing to bitcha bout.. since NOBODY uses self wall volley in games i play... and those who attempt at using end up losing (because of lack of teamplay?...)
so yah.. it;s a moot point.. the only interest in this thread is picking the weak arguments
bad logic masquarading as good argument ticks me off
and to ansewer your question.. no.. it's not the same. a self wall volley is a "technique" for scoring (if you start telling me ppl self volley all the time to pass.. i will call you nuts and end it there). it uses a charge shot to start, then bounces the ball off a wall.. then hit towards the goal at a very fast speed. this is a technique.
a pass or a charged shot is not a technique. theyre the tools of the game. you can use them to pass, to shoot, to reset the game, etc.. saying that if selfwall volley is removed, then both the pass shot and the charge shot should be removed as well.. is flawed logic.
(notice the lack of personal attacks in my posts.. like.. "if you kept an open mind" or "actually read the statements"...or.. implying other ppl dont look at the big picture..)
if still not convinced, then answer me this: if you were attacking with ur teammates.. and had the possibility to self wall volley or pass and let the other person score.. both sure scores... which option would you take? if you answer it honestly enough, you should understand the difference.
top reply to ur edit:
im not bitching about it.. again, im just pointing out flawed logic passing as so called "smart argument". there's nothing to bitcha bout.. since NOBODY uses self wall volley in games i play... and those who attempt at using end up losing (because of lack of teamplay?...)
so yah.. it;s a moot point.. the only interest in this thread is picking the weak arguments
Last edited by priior on 25-08-2004 18:46, edited 1 time in total.
It's a type of shot... and to answer your question it would have to depend on my skills and the skills of the one with me and the situation and the time... too many factors to determine exactly how I would handle it... a self-volley is never a sure score, a pass is never a sure score. For example...
Things that can go wrong with a selfvolley:
Set is off target
Ball is fired wide of the net
Goalie can play the self-volley
Things that can go wrong with a pass:
Set/pass is off target
Shot from other player is fired wide of the net
Goalie can play the pass
I'm still not convinced and the answer to your question is purely situational. My answer is, sometimes I would, sometimes I won't...
Edit:
Bottom-line is this is not about teamplay, this is about offensive options... your arguments just don't cut it for explaining why self-volleying isn't good
Things that can go wrong with a selfvolley:
Set is off target
Ball is fired wide of the net
Goalie can play the self-volley
Things that can go wrong with a pass:
Set/pass is off target
Shot from other player is fired wide of the net
Goalie can play the pass
I'm still not convinced and the answer to your question is purely situational. My answer is, sometimes I would, sometimes I won't...
Edit:
Bottom-line is this is not about teamplay, this is about offensive options... your arguments just don't cut it for explaining why self-volleying isn't good
Last edited by Esorcismo on 25-08-2004 18:53, edited 1 time in total.
nb: at striking range banana is rarely that important and doesn't affect the flight of the ball significantly. Banana shots are far more useful for long range passes.
The volley setup gives you time to get round a defender and maybe put the keeper out of position. On top of this you want an unstoppable volley shot. Seems unbalanced to me.
The system you advocate makes self-volleying much more effective than regular shooting. I think they should be brought to the same level.
Therein lies the problem as far as I'm concerned.I just want to be able to rocket that shot home without having to pick it up first and giving anyone a chance.
The volley setup gives you time to get round a defender and maybe put the keeper out of position. On top of this you want an unstoppable volley shot. Seems unbalanced to me.
The system you advocate makes self-volleying much more effective than regular shooting. I think they should be brought to the same level.
"nb: at striking range banana is rarely that important and doesn't affect the flight of the ball significantly. Banana shots are far more useful for long range passes."
The first sentence is not true at all as it's popularly used for sneaking shot inside the corner... that's how I get most of my reg goals.
Therein lies the problem as far as I'm concerned.
"The volley setup gives you time to get round a defender and maybe put the keeper out of position. On top of this you want an unstoppable volley shot. Seems unbalanced to me."
It's stoppable, it's called react to the play... if you see the shot is intentionally wide, DON'T BITE THE BAIT! In 2.0 the only reason it wasn't easily stoppable was because short side was fucked up... now with that being fix it should be fine.
In this instance it's WORSE than soccer, cause what you're basically saying is that if you juke the keeper out of position you should have to shoot a shot that he can save anyway... doesn't that defeat the whole purpose?
"The system you advocate makes self-volleying much more effective than regular shooting. I think they should be brought to the same level."
I advocate the same system as 2.0, did you see people abusing the self-volley in regular matches because it was so much more effective? I sure didn't.
The first sentence is not true at all as it's popularly used for sneaking shot inside the corner... that's how I get most of my reg goals.
Therein lies the problem as far as I'm concerned.
"The volley setup gives you time to get round a defender and maybe put the keeper out of position. On top of this you want an unstoppable volley shot. Seems unbalanced to me."
It's stoppable, it's called react to the play... if you see the shot is intentionally wide, DON'T BITE THE BAIT! In 2.0 the only reason it wasn't easily stoppable was because short side was fucked up... now with that being fix it should be fine.
In this instance it's WORSE than soccer, cause what you're basically saying is that if you juke the keeper out of position you should have to shoot a shot that he can save anyway... doesn't that defeat the whole purpose?
"The system you advocate makes self-volleying much more effective than regular shooting. I think they should be brought to the same level."
I advocate the same system as 2.0, did you see people abusing the self-volley in regular matches because it was so much more effective? I sure didn't.
Last edited by Esorcismo on 25-08-2004 19:04, edited 1 time in total.
I did. Why do you think it was nerfed?
Secondly, I said the volley setup SOMETIMES puts the keeper out of position not every time. A good keep can sometimes read the situation and boost the self volleyer away before they get time to score. Despite that, even of the keep holds his line, the shot was often too fast to react to.
Why not give the keep a chance?
But those kind of shots dont exactly leave the keeper guessing which way the shots are going do they?"nb: at striking range banana is rarely that important and doesn't affect the flight of the ball significantly. Banana shots are far more useful for long range passes."
The first sentence is not true at all as it's popularly used for sneaking shot inside the corner
Secondly, I said the volley setup SOMETIMES puts the keeper out of position not every time. A good keep can sometimes read the situation and boost the self volleyer away before they get time to score. Despite that, even of the keep holds his line, the shot was often too fast to react to.
Why not give the keep a chance?
Last edited by R3L!K on 25-08-2004 19:07, edited 1 time in total.