with no latency he could dodge away all balls
now you can sure say "make the goals twice as big and remove the latency"
but who would actually like that?
1.7 beta :/
Moderators: Jay2k1, DavidM, The_One
First... before saying "who would actually like that?" I think it would be prudent to release a "concept test" release and see the actual pros and cons of it. If it doesn't work, then you get proof to back your statement, and at the same time, you get a new angle on things.
Timed dodging is terribly effective. I personally find it challenging to face a keeper who is good at effective use of dodge. I would like to get by them easier. However, I do not believe the way to solve this is to neuter their style of play and force them to play differently. I favor games that allow for differnet playstyles, because you get fun encounters when the different styles collide.
Before I go into my rant. If the problem is simply that there is a distint lack of distance scoring, add 5 mps to all shots. If the problem revolves around dodging, read on.
Dodging is effective because the way the game timing works. The timing in 1.6 is such that from any given position, the time from the very start of the charge to the "goal" sound effect is roughly the same. That is to say, if you aim for the near corner, at full charge, it takes 1.5 + roughly .35 or 1.9 to approximate. A very low charge shot may travel for 1.3 seconds, and was charged for only .6 seconds. Less than half. From the same spot (shooting position) to the same spot (point where the ball crosses the plane of the goal) the time will be roughly the same. This is true for every spot on the goal. In addition to this, the "far side" of the goal takes a little bit longer. It is interesting, because the dodge speed + the catch radius allows the keeper to be in the correct position at every time the ball would cross the goal. In essence, if timed right, he will be in the exact spot the ball would cross the goal at the right time, for every posibility, no matter the charge of the shot. It gets even easier when every shot except those in the last .3 seconds is impotent, making the timing even easier to memorize.
Currently, you beat timed-dodging keepers through either messing up their timing, or extremely good placement. You mess up their timing with curved shots, cannon shots (particularly shifted cannons shots, not straight cannon shots.) volleys, and/or bounce shots(off the ground, not right click). Pass shots can also work in some cases. You can trick them with placement in banana shots, or aiming perfectly for the top corners or the middle on the ground.
If there is a problem scoring, it doesn't make sence to neuther many people's playstyles, and thus frustrate them, expecially those playing the most frustrating position in Deathball. Rather elevating the effectiveness of the techniques that best counter the timed dodging.
The 1.7 system is flawed in that if someone is slightly to the side. Roughly facing the post straight forward, a full charge shot will burn the keeper inside, and if the keeper comes to favor the inside, he cannot effectively reach the far side. So the shooter either wins with the speed advantage on the inside. The goal should go in faster than .35 faster than human reaciton time + internet latency. This means that the keeper must guess and dodge left. If the keeper gets into the habit of guessing near side, then the shooter wins outside. If the keeper can favor the inside, then can still cover the outside with dodge, then no change was made since 1.6 at all.
The problem can probably be corrected through shot changes, or dodge parameter changes (other than distance).
allowing for more variety in shots and shot speed would reduce the effectiveness of timing techniques.
Shot changes that could work:
-Increase the power of all shots, allowing for a wider range of effective timings for the shooter, allowing them to get by the keeper.
-Make the power of shots increase even more at the end of the charge, so that there is more play with shot speed.
-Make the gun not instantly overcharge. Instead allow a ~.3 second period where the shooter can hold the ball, at max charge, so there is that .3 second play window to mess with timing.
-allow for slower, more tactical cannon shots, allowing for mixed timing and placement.
Any of those is worth a shot.
Changing dodge parameters is a riskier, and probably a more time consuming method.
-The speed of the dodge could be altered, so that the very beginning of the dodge is extremely fast, but as it approaches the end, it slows down dramatically, so that the total airtime of the dodge is the same as 1.6, butthe keeper occupies the second half of the dodge longer than he occupies the first half. This would allow placement shots near the keeper to go in mroe readily. If the keeper wishes to catch something near him, he must choose to walk, or dodge "manually" (not on timing).
-The catch radius while dodging could be made smaller, and shifted more towrds the front of the player. This would require a keeper to be looking at the ball to catch it. This would allow people to beat the keeper with placed shots. This would reduce the "active" catch area to only occupy either "near" or "far" on any given shot.. not the current "near and far" in 1.6)
On a tangent, have you tried a no-latency and larger keeper hammer, but instead of the hammer shooting the ball off, it simply slows it down X units per second. That way, if the ball is completely out of reach, the keeper would simply slow the ball a little and it would go in. However, if it were slightly out of reach on a dodge or something, it would get slowed down and then the keeper would hopefully be able to catch it. If the keeper dodged, then landed, then tried to reach out, he would be able to hit it, but it would probably barely go in, just as he barely missed it. I'm not suggesting it as a good change, simply something I would be interested in seeing tested. It would probably work best with faster shots in general though.
Sorry for the friggin book... I hope it wasn't a -total- waste of time.
Timed dodging is terribly effective. I personally find it challenging to face a keeper who is good at effective use of dodge. I would like to get by them easier. However, I do not believe the way to solve this is to neuter their style of play and force them to play differently. I favor games that allow for differnet playstyles, because you get fun encounters when the different styles collide.
Before I go into my rant. If the problem is simply that there is a distint lack of distance scoring, add 5 mps to all shots. If the problem revolves around dodging, read on.
Dodging is effective because the way the game timing works. The timing in 1.6 is such that from any given position, the time from the very start of the charge to the "goal" sound effect is roughly the same. That is to say, if you aim for the near corner, at full charge, it takes 1.5 + roughly .35 or 1.9 to approximate. A very low charge shot may travel for 1.3 seconds, and was charged for only .6 seconds. Less than half. From the same spot (shooting position) to the same spot (point where the ball crosses the plane of the goal) the time will be roughly the same. This is true for every spot on the goal. In addition to this, the "far side" of the goal takes a little bit longer. It is interesting, because the dodge speed + the catch radius allows the keeper to be in the correct position at every time the ball would cross the goal. In essence, if timed right, he will be in the exact spot the ball would cross the goal at the right time, for every posibility, no matter the charge of the shot. It gets even easier when every shot except those in the last .3 seconds is impotent, making the timing even easier to memorize.
Currently, you beat timed-dodging keepers through either messing up their timing, or extremely good placement. You mess up their timing with curved shots, cannon shots (particularly shifted cannons shots, not straight cannon shots.) volleys, and/or bounce shots(off the ground, not right click). Pass shots can also work in some cases. You can trick them with placement in banana shots, or aiming perfectly for the top corners or the middle on the ground.
If there is a problem scoring, it doesn't make sence to neuther many people's playstyles, and thus frustrate them, expecially those playing the most frustrating position in Deathball. Rather elevating the effectiveness of the techniques that best counter the timed dodging.
The 1.7 system is flawed in that if someone is slightly to the side. Roughly facing the post straight forward, a full charge shot will burn the keeper inside, and if the keeper comes to favor the inside, he cannot effectively reach the far side. So the shooter either wins with the speed advantage on the inside. The goal should go in faster than .35 faster than human reaciton time + internet latency. This means that the keeper must guess and dodge left. If the keeper gets into the habit of guessing near side, then the shooter wins outside. If the keeper can favor the inside, then can still cover the outside with dodge, then no change was made since 1.6 at all.
The problem can probably be corrected through shot changes, or dodge parameter changes (other than distance).
allowing for more variety in shots and shot speed would reduce the effectiveness of timing techniques.
Shot changes that could work:
-Increase the power of all shots, allowing for a wider range of effective timings for the shooter, allowing them to get by the keeper.
-Make the power of shots increase even more at the end of the charge, so that there is more play with shot speed.
-Make the gun not instantly overcharge. Instead allow a ~.3 second period where the shooter can hold the ball, at max charge, so there is that .3 second play window to mess with timing.
-allow for slower, more tactical cannon shots, allowing for mixed timing and placement.
Any of those is worth a shot.
Changing dodge parameters is a riskier, and probably a more time consuming method.
-The speed of the dodge could be altered, so that the very beginning of the dodge is extremely fast, but as it approaches the end, it slows down dramatically, so that the total airtime of the dodge is the same as 1.6, butthe keeper occupies the second half of the dodge longer than he occupies the first half. This would allow placement shots near the keeper to go in mroe readily. If the keeper wishes to catch something near him, he must choose to walk, or dodge "manually" (not on timing).
-The catch radius while dodging could be made smaller, and shifted more towrds the front of the player. This would require a keeper to be looking at the ball to catch it. This would allow people to beat the keeper with placed shots. This would reduce the "active" catch area to only occupy either "near" or "far" on any given shot.. not the current "near and far" in 1.6)
On a tangent, have you tried a no-latency and larger keeper hammer, but instead of the hammer shooting the ball off, it simply slows it down X units per second. That way, if the ball is completely out of reach, the keeper would simply slow the ball a little and it would go in. However, if it were slightly out of reach on a dodge or something, it would get slowed down and then the keeper would hopefully be able to catch it. If the keeper dodged, then landed, then tried to reach out, he would be able to hit it, but it would probably barely go in, just as he barely missed it. I'm not suggesting it as a good change, simply something I would be interested in seeing tested. It would probably work best with faster shots in general though.
Sorry for the friggin book... I hope it wasn't a -total- waste of time.
FFS, why are we making keeping even harder than it already is. If a keeper camps on one post and dodge-jumps across to make a save then WELL PLAYED KEEPER. A decent attacker will find ways to counter-act this.
I'm sick of this DB mentality that if someone develops a good skill "it must be stopped".
There is a cronic lack of keepers how it is. Measures to make their job harder will only make it worse.
There is no shortage of goals in clan matches proving keeping is not too easy. It is fine as it is in 1.6. With 1.7 it feels like you've got lead boots on...Reaction time and positioning are key elements of keeping, but making them slower and less agile is MADNESS.
Quadjump is not compensation for the new changes. Stop tampering with a skill that is hard to master. Do you really want no-one willing to play in goal?
I'm sick of this DB mentality that if someone develops a good skill "it must be stopped".
There is a cronic lack of keepers how it is. Measures to make their job harder will only make it worse.
There is no shortage of goals in clan matches proving keeping is not too easy. It is fine as it is in 1.6. With 1.7 it feels like you've got lead boots on...Reaction time and positioning are key elements of keeping, but making them slower and less agile is MADNESS.
Quadjump is not compensation for the new changes. Stop tampering with a skill that is hard to master. Do you really want no-one willing to play in goal?
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Harold|ZBN
- Senior Member
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 19-03-2003 15:55
Rampart wrote:
Shot changes that could work:
-Increase the power of all shots, allowing for a wider range of effective timings for the shooter, allowing them to get by the keeper.
-Make the power of shots increase even more at the end of the charge, so that there is more play with shot speed.
-Make the gun not instantly overcharge. Instead allow a ~.3 second period where the shooter can hold the ball, at max charge, so there is that .3 second play window to mess with timing.
.
Any of those is worth a shot.
Changing dodge parameters is a riskier, and probably a more time consuming method.
-The speed of the dodge could be altered, so that the very beginning of the dodge is extremely fast, but as it approaches the end, it slows down dramatically, so that the total airtime of the dodge is the same as 1.6, butthe keeper occupies the second half of the dodge longer than he occupies the first half. This would allow placement shots near the keeper to go in mroe readily. If the keeper wishes to catch something near him, he must choose to walk, or dodge "manually" (not on timing).
-The catch radius while dodging could be made smaller, and shifted more towrds the front of the player. This would require a keeper to be looking at the ball to catch it. This would allow people to beat the keeper with placed shots. This would reduce the "active" catch area to only occupy either "near" or "far" on any given shot.. not the current "near and far" in 1.6)
On a tangent, have you tried a no-latency and larger keeper hammer, but instead of the hammer shooting the ball off, it simply slows it down X units per second. That way, if the ball is completely out of reach, the keeper would simply slow the ball a little and it would go in. However, if it were slightly out of reach on a dodge or something, it would get slowed down and then the keeper would hopefully be able to catch it. If the keeper dodged, then landed, then tried to reach out, he would be able to hit it, but it would probably barely go in, just as he barely missed it. I'm not suggesting it as a good change, simply something I would be interested in seeing tested. It would probably work best with faster shots in general though.
all the above simple means this: a keeper can no longer stop any shot... are u mad??? increasing shot power more and stop overcharging??? any half assed attacker can give such a shot that u cant ever dream of stopping...
the dodge is effictive coz it gets u from 1 point 2 another quickly. any changes to that is just silly.
this is silly ppl who have no idea what keeping is like writing whole books on how the game should be changed 
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theberkin8or
- Senior Member
- Posts: 794
- Joined: 09-03-2003 20:41
actually if you read ramparts ideas (and take them how they are supposed to be taken: as a list of possible ideas) some of the them would not make keeping impossible right now.
btw your comment out wearing led boots, davidm said he is going speed dodging back up so that won't be the concern, just the distance you jump.
btw your comment out wearing led boots, davidm said he is going speed dodging back up so that won't be the concern, just the distance you jump.
Larc: "i hate seeing people stand one one side and dodge across, keeping is about more than reaction time"
DavidM: "thats the point... "
that was my point, i was just stating that i also dont like it.
to all the people complaining about DavidM changing how people play... the concept you are missing is that some people think the game is fairly broken, and these are a series of fixes... just because people are good at something doesn't mean its a skill, or should be part of the game. the concept of sitting on one side and dodging across is totally rediculous, you find me a single sport with a goalie/keeper that uses any sort of a strategy similar to this. from a sports view it makes 0 sense. so why not remove it? becuase someone is good at it? that doesn't make sense to me.
but it does effect standard style goalies too. on the minus side, once again this is a patch instead of fixing the problem. there are unwanted side effects of this, i'm all for the dodge distance only being 3/4 of a goal in concept... but shortening the dodge distance makes it harder to get to loose balls, attack defenders.
if the problem is when someone camps inside the keeper zone and dodges across why not limit your changes to inside the keeper zone... if someone is out running around they should be unfected imo. maybe the hammer too.
or why dont you just add a dodge delay?
(dont do this, its a joke, i felt the need to clarify that it is a joke since other dumb things like this already exist:))
DavidM: "thats the point... "
that was my point, i was just stating that i also dont like it.
to all the people complaining about DavidM changing how people play... the concept you are missing is that some people think the game is fairly broken, and these are a series of fixes... just because people are good at something doesn't mean its a skill, or should be part of the game. the concept of sitting on one side and dodging across is totally rediculous, you find me a single sport with a goalie/keeper that uses any sort of a strategy similar to this. from a sports view it makes 0 sense. so why not remove it? becuase someone is good at it? that doesn't make sense to me.
but it does effect standard style goalies too. on the minus side, once again this is a patch instead of fixing the problem. there are unwanted side effects of this, i'm all for the dodge distance only being 3/4 of a goal in concept... but shortening the dodge distance makes it harder to get to loose balls, attack defenders.
if the problem is when someone camps inside the keeper zone and dodges across why not limit your changes to inside the keeper zone... if someone is out running around they should be unfected imo. maybe the hammer too.
or why dont you just add a dodge delay?
(dont do this, its a joke, i felt the need to clarify that it is a joke since other dumb things like this already exist:))
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Harold|ZBN
- Senior Member
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 19-03-2003 15:55