First of all, if you guys want to turn these intelligent arguments into name calling threads then we can start that too.
I will try not to be confused this time so that people think im not able to have a decent discussion!
Sixty - Messy stated "the problem is that the US are dragging us down with them."
And since the only way a country can decrease is economically, then I only assume he meant that. Unless he was referring to Europe sinking.
Messy - You're going to have to come up with a little better argument than calling someone a double poster.
Bush is Re-elected as Kerry Concedes
Moderators: Jay2k1, DavidM, The_One
You're saying it like it was my only argument 
DOO DOO HEAD!
(sorry..I really liked that one
)
Seriously though, the way I meant it, is in many ways, of which is most worrying to me personally, is that our prime minister tends to follow Bush everywhere, and I don't think the majority of our population agrees with it
In dragging us with him into a senseless war without a reason (at least to us it is!) I feel we're calling a lot of bad things upon ourselves just because we're following Bush.
Likewise, I can imagine other countries undergoing us too.
What's most horrible is that Bush' 'if you're not with us you're against us'-threat fooled our Prime Minister ;x
And yeah, we're too blame for that.
Don't know why the Dutch chose him anyway *sigh*
All too many are born. For the superfluous, the state was made.
DOO DOO HEAD!
(sorry..I really liked that one
)Seriously though, the way I meant it, is in many ways, of which is most worrying to me personally, is that our prime minister tends to follow Bush everywhere, and I don't think the majority of our population agrees with it
In dragging us with him into a senseless war without a reason (at least to us it is!) I feel we're calling a lot of bad things upon ourselves just because we're following Bush.
Likewise, I can imagine other countries undergoing us too.
What's most horrible is that Bush' 'if you're not with us you're against us'-threat fooled our Prime Minister ;x
And yeah, we're too blame for that.
Don't know why the Dutch chose him anyway *sigh*
All too many are born. For the superfluous, the state was made.
Messy wrote:
In dragging us with him into a senseless war without a reason (at least to us it is!) I feel we're calling a lot of bad things upon ourselves just because we're following Bush.
I don't think most Americans or even the administration expected every nation to join the coalition. Just as long as the Coalition isn't undermined I believe Bush doesn't really care. We'll do all the hard work if necessary, yall can just sit back and wait like you usually do.
BTW, Doo Doo Head was fucking hilarious.
/o\ Harry Potter meeting Bush 
Thanks Bush for the huge tax increase
I used "tax increase" to stir debate and make people thing. How can I say what I said?
Lets use a credit card for an example to explain the Bush tax cuts. You have a balance on your credit card. You send in the minimum payment. You get a check back for a portion of the payment you sent in. Your charged a fee for that check and interest on it. Your charged interest on the money you were sent back and still owe that money. Your also charged interest on the rest of the outstanding balance and must pay it back. A credit card company that sends back part of your payment doesn't save you money. You still owe that money plus. Neither does lowering your minimum payment.
The national debt is going over 8 trillion dollars.
The deficit is almost 500 billion dollars for this year alone
The interest we pay is well over 300 billion a year.
The simple mortgage rule is - if you buy a 100,000 home and mortgage it for 30 years, you'll pay 3 times that or 300,000. That is not exact but, close. If the US decides to pay off the debt in 30 years, then 8 trillion x 3 = 24 trillion. Note, we are running a deficit and adding to the debt. We are not paying it off, nor are there any plans to do so for the foreseeable future.
We the taxpayers owe a lot money. Our tax obligation is considerably more than we pay and is continuing to grow. Well over 300 billion of the taxes we currently pay goes for interest. You get nothing for that money but time.
With the debt, deficit, and interest, our tax burden is growing. Our debt obligation is growing. That means we're going to be paying higher taxes. Which means our taxes are increasing.
Going back to the credit card example, Bush's so called tax cut, really just lowered your minimum monthly payments. Your balance is increasing and your paying for nothing in the terms of interest. Many people looked at their minimum monthly payment and believed they saved money. I looked at the whole picture and know it cost me money.
If someone told you to keeping running up your charge cards and not to worry about your debt, it doesn't matter, it's not real, it will go away. You would probably call them an idiot. A rich person on TV who got back hundreds of times what I got back from the so called tax cuts, telling me don't worry about the debt, is not the guy I think I want to believe.
The American consumer is in debt. Too much debt is something to worry about. It's much better to have money in the bank than to owe money to the bank. Many Americans worry about their mortgage expense, credit card balances, car payments, ect... The national debt is another consumer debt. It is worthy of attention.
Consider this: Bush's so called tax cuts were for 1.4 trillion over ten years. The well over 300 billion we currently pay for nothing = well over 3 trillion over ten years. Those numbers show me that if America pays off the debt, we could get a real and substantial tax cut. You think you saved money with Bush's tax cut? Think what you be feeling with over double that amount and no obligation to pay it back.
Dirt says "The growth of the economy is determined by spending." That well over 300 billion dollars a year we pay for nothing would do wonders for our economy back in the consumers hands.
I want a tax cut. However, I want a real tax cut. I want to save money. I want to spend money.
What I got from Bush's so called tax cut, was a bigger tax obligations which means my taxes are going up. Bush plans more to come. A lot of rich people are very happy. I'm not. I can't use the "small" cut in my minimum payment to make myself richer and pad my bank account. My "small" cut is costing me to much money to be happy. I doubt I'll be exempt from my debts.
Lets use a credit card for an example to explain the Bush tax cuts. You have a balance on your credit card. You send in the minimum payment. You get a check back for a portion of the payment you sent in. Your charged a fee for that check and interest on it. Your charged interest on the money you were sent back and still owe that money. Your also charged interest on the rest of the outstanding balance and must pay it back. A credit card company that sends back part of your payment doesn't save you money. You still owe that money plus. Neither does lowering your minimum payment.
The national debt is going over 8 trillion dollars.
The deficit is almost 500 billion dollars for this year alone
The interest we pay is well over 300 billion a year.
The simple mortgage rule is - if you buy a 100,000 home and mortgage it for 30 years, you'll pay 3 times that or 300,000. That is not exact but, close. If the US decides to pay off the debt in 30 years, then 8 trillion x 3 = 24 trillion. Note, we are running a deficit and adding to the debt. We are not paying it off, nor are there any plans to do so for the foreseeable future.
We the taxpayers owe a lot money. Our tax obligation is considerably more than we pay and is continuing to grow. Well over 300 billion of the taxes we currently pay goes for interest. You get nothing for that money but time.
With the debt, deficit, and interest, our tax burden is growing. Our debt obligation is growing. That means we're going to be paying higher taxes. Which means our taxes are increasing.
Going back to the credit card example, Bush's so called tax cut, really just lowered your minimum monthly payments. Your balance is increasing and your paying for nothing in the terms of interest. Many people looked at their minimum monthly payment and believed they saved money. I looked at the whole picture and know it cost me money.
If someone told you to keeping running up your charge cards and not to worry about your debt, it doesn't matter, it's not real, it will go away. You would probably call them an idiot. A rich person on TV who got back hundreds of times what I got back from the so called tax cuts, telling me don't worry about the debt, is not the guy I think I want to believe.
The American consumer is in debt. Too much debt is something to worry about. It's much better to have money in the bank than to owe money to the bank. Many Americans worry about their mortgage expense, credit card balances, car payments, ect... The national debt is another consumer debt. It is worthy of attention.
Consider this: Bush's so called tax cuts were for 1.4 trillion over ten years. The well over 300 billion we currently pay for nothing = well over 3 trillion over ten years. Those numbers show me that if America pays off the debt, we could get a real and substantial tax cut. You think you saved money with Bush's tax cut? Think what you be feeling with over double that amount and no obligation to pay it back.
Dirt says "The growth of the economy is determined by spending." That well over 300 billion dollars a year we pay for nothing would do wonders for our economy back in the consumers hands.
I want a tax cut. However, I want a real tax cut. I want to save money. I want to spend money.
What I got from Bush's so called tax cut, was a bigger tax obligations which means my taxes are going up. Bush plans more to come. A lot of rich people are very happy. I'm not. I can't use the "small" cut in my minimum payment to make myself richer and pad my bank account. My "small" cut is costing me to much money to be happy. I doubt I'll be exempt from my debts.
so if i'm understanding you right (bit stoned atm so not sure),
Bush is offering a bribe. Pay less tax now thus increasing consumer cash flow, but in the long term pay off a bigger debt, which can itself only be paid off with increased taxes.
This is a perennial problem as far as i know. When the economy becomes less profitable, the tax payer always coughs up. I guess Bush is gambling on a boom period. Risky business in the current climate. But if he's wrong, theres always more tax rises. And since he's not up for re-election now. What's to stop him raising taxes anyway? Could anything be done about it?
Edit: bit of a ramble, soz:eek:
Bush is offering a bribe. Pay less tax now thus increasing consumer cash flow, but in the long term pay off a bigger debt, which can itself only be paid off with increased taxes.
This is a perennial problem as far as i know. When the economy becomes less profitable, the tax payer always coughs up. I guess Bush is gambling on a boom period. Risky business in the current climate. But if he's wrong, theres always more tax rises. And since he's not up for re-election now. What's to stop him raising taxes anyway? Could anything be done about it?
Edit: bit of a ramble, soz:eek:
giber wrote: And what exactly is a corporate slave? You mean a place where you go to work are well compensated and given many benifits such as health insurance, bonuses etc... Problem with the world is everyone expects to be given everything. Government is not here to be a handout to those who choose not to contribute in a useful way to our society. You get what you earn here brother. I'd suggest you take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror and start taking a little personal responsibility for yourself.
As for job loss etc... any monkey with a brain can look at an industry that is failing and see it is time to move on. But again people have no drive, no responsibilty for themselves, if something bad happens to them it must be someone elses fault, ie the government.
A simple ECO1101 class would do wonders for the vast majority those unwilling to make their own path in life.
Blast away.
That a pretty good slam on me considering it doesn't reflect anything in my posts.
"You get what you earn here brother." You do? It a sounds good but doesn't hold true. Most Americans don't earn money.
When the guy next to you gets laid off and your told to do your job and his job, do you also get his pay and benefits? He earned it, so now you earned it, right? That's not business as most Americans know it.
When my pay is benchmarked off of other businesses in my community, is that earning money?
When I save my company a million dollars do I get it. I earned it didn't I? That's not business as most Americans know it.
When I buy a piece of paper and then sell it someone else at a higher price than I paid, did I earn that money? (that's the stock market)
Microsoft has tens of billions in cash reserves. Who earned that through hard work and will they get it?
Are the most profitable companies also the companies with the highest paid employees?
Are the richest people in the world the smartest and hardest working?
A story: I knock on my neighbor's door and I agree to mow his lawn for $20. I knock on my other neighbors door and get a kid to mow the first neighbors lawn for $5. I now own a business and have an employee. I go in my house and drink beer $15 richer. Next year I want more money and so does the kid. I knock on my neighbors door and this year it $25 dollars to mow the lawn. I get the kid to do it for $6. I go in my house and drink beer $19 richer. The third year I get a second lawn to mow for another $25 dollars. I get the kid to mow both lawns for $12 dollars. I go in my house and drink beer $38 dollars richer. One of the neighbors gives me a $10 bonus for doing a good job. I give the kid $1 as a bonus for doing a good job.
That story is crude but closer to the real business world than "You get what you earn here brother". There are a lot of similarity between my story and the real business world.
This is also crude and overly simplified but, it's generally true. The business world in general, which is the rich, makes money by getting it's employee to do as much as possible for as little as possible.
In general, people sort of earn money but, they are also sort of given it. Life is a lot more complicated than "work hard and you'll get what you earn". A lot more complicated than "if you don't have a job go get one". And your life isn't just controlled by you. It's controlled a lot by business where you spend a large portion of your life. Most Americans don't tell their employer, they told by their employer. Governmental laws puts constraints on what you can be told. You have some control over your life's path but, not total control. Every action has a reaction.
R3L!K wrote: so if i'm understanding you right (bit stoned atm so not sure),
Bush is offering a bribe. Pay less tax now thus increasing consumer cash flow, but in the long term pay off a bigger debt, which can itself only be paid off with increased taxes.
That's one way to put it. The bribe part is that 80% of the so called tax cut went to the top 10%. Most Americans got jack crap from the so called tax cut compared to the rich. Economist said it did almost nothing for the economy which it was "sold" as benefiting. The rich are suppose to create jobs with their increased cash flow. Most economist discount that rational "trickle down economics". 2/3 of the US economy is it's people, the consumer. I terms of supply and demand, increasing supply doesn't increase demand. It works the other way around. Increasing demand drives the need to increase supply which creates jobs. Consumers spending creates jobs.
The bribe was making the rich a lot richer for a little increase in cash flow for the average American. The sham was that in the long term the average American will lose a lot of money.
Consider this: The rich got 80% of the so called tax break. The rich invest that money by buying US Treasury bonds which are issued to cover the continuing deficit and raise the debt. Think about it.
Debt clocks: http://www.uwsa.com/uwsa-usdebt.html
: http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
: http://www.toptips.com/debtclock.html
Last edited by Twigstir on 06-11-2004 02:55, edited 1 time in total.
An increase in taxes and bigger government is one way to pay off the debt, which is what the liberals in America support.
The other way is for the government to spend less and make government smaller, which is what the conservatives in America support.
Sadly the President has yet to veto a bill and has let spending run rampant. I wish he would put his foot down on some of these expenditures.
The other way is for the government to spend less and make government smaller, which is what the conservatives in America support.
Sadly the President has yet to veto a bill and has let spending run rampant. I wish he would put his foot down on some of these expenditures.